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Interview with Scott Jurek

Posted on February 22, 2007, Interview conducted February 15, 2007

By Duncan Larkin

Scott Jurek, 33, is arguably one of the best ultramarathoners in the world. Raised in a home on a three-acre lot outside Duluth, Minnesota, Jurek took up running in junior high school as a natural extension of his innate desire to be outdoors. He ran track his sophomore year of high school in order to prepare for his passion at the time: Nordic skiing. At the age of 20, he was talked into running his first ultra, the Minnesota Voyager 50 Mile, where he placed second. After that, he was hooked on ultras. In 1999, at the age of 25, he was the youngest runner ever to win the Western States 100-Mile Endurance run—an event that he went on to win six more times consecutively. He set the course record of 15:36 there in 2004. Jurek's other notable ultra victories include winning the grueling Badwater Ultramarathon twice (2005, 2006) and establishing a new course record of 24:36, winning the Leona Divide 50-Mile Run four times (2000-2002 and 2004), winning the Miwok 100k three times (2002-2004), and winning the Montrail Ultra Cup series twice (2002, 2003).

Last year, Jurek added another key victory to his impressive ultramarathoning resume: In September, he won the 246k (152 mile) Spartathlon: a 23-year-old race from Athens to Sparta, Greece. The race was created to test Herodotus' account of Pheidippides' famous run to Sparta in 490 BCE. Jurek was only the second runner in the race's history to cover the course in less than 23 hours. (He ran it in 22:52:18 which translates into 8:58 pace per mile.)

Jurek holds the following personal records: 15:36 (100-mile trail), 7:28 (100k road), 6:21 (50-mile trail), 5:50 (50-mile road), 3:04 (50k trail), and 2:38:00 (marathon).

Jurek attended physical therapy school at the College of St. Scholastica and graduated with his Master's degree in physical therapy in 1998. He currently lives in Seattle, Washington with his wife, Leah, a massage therapist. They own and manage Beyond Running Trail Running Camps, Beyond Running Training Services, and their private physical therapy and massage therapy practices.

Tell us about the Spartathlon. By the sounds of it, it was a hot race. Do you think your experience racing in the tough conditions at Badwater helped you there?
Definitely Western States and Badwater helped in terms of giving me confidence that my body can perform. It kind of comes down to each individual day and dealing with the conditions. Definitely experience did play a role, but the heat is always a factor in what you can do in terms of pace and the intensity of when you can push and where. I'd have to say the experience definitely helped some, but a lot comes down to monitoring the body in the race itself and paying attention to what's going on. Is it a time to hold back? Is it a time to push? And that comes with experience as well.

Do you have any plans to run it [the Spartathlon] again?
I do. I probably won't run it this year, the way my schedule is looking. Getting to know the course last year and having that experience, I'd like to go back and see how close I can get to Yiannis' times. [Famed ultramarathoner Yiannis Kouros holds the course record as well as the four fastest times on it.] Right now it's looking more like 2008.

You have course records at Western States and Badwater, are you ever going to go back there [to the Spartathlon] with the intent of setting that course record [which is 20:25]?
I admire Yiannis a lot. He owns practically every world record after the 12-hour distance. He is a phenomenal athlete. I don't want to say that the course record is definitely possible for me, but I'd like to give it a shot—give it my best. I'm at my peak years for the next couple of years. And now knowing the course and using that experience, I feel that I can definitely take a lot off of my first time.

What kind of mileage are you running?
A lot of people are surprised to hear that during the peak portion of my training, I am only running 110-120 miles per week. The bulk of that [training] occurs on the weekends on the trails. When I was training for Badwater, and the Spartathlon, I did incorporate some long road runs to prepare my body for the pavement. I did mix in some trail stuff to allow the body to recover a little bit quicker.

What kind of pace are you doing your runs at?
It varies. I still incorporate a lot of typical marathon training workouts including tempo runs. I'm not too fast; I'm a 2:38 marathoner. I'm running my tempo runs anywhere from 5:50 (per mile) to 5:45 pace. When I do my long training runs, I'm doing anything from 6:20 pace to 10:00 pace (when it's on the trails). I do incorporate a lot of long hill repeats where I'm doing four-mile climbs—doing multiple repeats of those—and that's typically in my lactate threshold area. Obviously pace on [the hill repeats] is very slow in comparison to on the roads—10:00 to 12:00 pace. I do incorporate a lot of easy training runs as well so that I can recover from the hard stuff—doing those anywhere from 8:00 pace to 7:00 pace.

Do you ever do any speedwork on the track?
Yeah. That's something I forgot to mention. I do get on the track typically for a few months out of the season. Typically I'll do 800 to 1,200s [meter repeats]. Occasionally I do incorporate some 200s and 400s, more for running economy and speed.

Are you monitoring your recovery in any way during those faster repeats or are you going with a full recovery?
Usually I'm doing anywhere from 80 to 90 percent of the interval time as my recovery period which is pretty standard for most V02 max interval workouts, at least from what I've seen from a lot of other athletes.

You mentioned that your marathon PR is 2:38. If you look at some guys that you are beating out there, they have substantially faster PRs in the marathon than you do. Do you think that you are built differently or that you just haven't trained for the marathon properly, or is it something else, like that the marathon can't be used as a gauge for the ultramarathon?
In all honesty, the faster that you can run a marathon, the faster you should be able to run 50k, 50 miles, 100 miles and beyond. If you look at the guys turning out the best 5k and 10, times, they should be some of the best marathoners eventually. A lot of them do go on to be the best marathoners. I think the same is possible with ultramarathons. However, ultramarathons have a major fatigue factor. I have [to compete against] the 2:17 and 2:18 marathoners like Rich Hanna and others who have a lot more speed when it comes to the marathon and the road stuff. But when you get out on the trails and you have the elements of the downhills and heat, [those] will a lot times hit a lot of the faster guys a lot harder.

There's the eating issue, too, and fueling on the run. A lot of faster marathoners are used to just squeaking by if they are turning out low 2[hour]s to 2:20 marathons. So there are a lot of different factors. There's the factor of going 100 miles and running in the dark sometimes—all of these little details that can level the playing field a little bit. That's what's interesting about the ultramarathon, if you look at the greats like Bruce Fordyce and Yiannis [Kouros]. I believe Yiannis had like a 2:26 or a 2:27 [marathon PR]—a very respectable marathon time. As you look at some of the faster ultramarathon greats throughout history, you can see that the trail aspect can throw in some other elements into things.

Regarding trail ultras and the vertical aspect of running them, are you doing any weight training to accommodate for that difference versus running long on the roads?
Yeah. I mainly spoke about running workouts when we were talking about mileage. I am definitely a firm believer in strength training. Obviously running a lot of hills and particularly long descents and inclines lend themselves to strength training. I'm a firm believer in hitting the weight room twice a week. I'm doing both upper body and lower body, incorporating anything from one legged leg presses, to hamstring work, to calf work, to hip work, to glut[eal] work. It's definitely a known scientific fact that building strength helps with running economy as well as injury prevention. I'm also incorporating some form of flexibility and core work—doing things like yoga. I'm also doing things like core training that works on stabilizing the pelvis and engaging the core muscles. I'm also a firm believer in rest and maintaining balance with nutrition. That's really key—looking at the whole picture. A lot of athletes learn to appreciate that in ultramarathoning. That's where I've noticed the biggest benefits in terms of bounce back and recovery; it's about keeping a balanced picture.

You mentioned you do upper body work. That's kind of unique. Are you doing light weights with high repetition repeats in your upper body workouts?
I kind of mix it up-everything from bicep to tricep. I do a lot of rotator cuff and rows, working the mid back. Especially in ultramarathons, when you are running anywhere 10 to 15 to 20 hours at a shot and sometimes carrying a water bottles, two in each hand. This means that the shoulder stabilizers have to be strong, which means you have to work the mid back and lats and, of course, working the biceps, triceps and chest are important for arm swing and arm drive. It's interesting with a guy like Yiannis Kouros. When you look at him, [you see that] he is pretty built on his upper body. During Yiannis' training and racing, he drove a lot of his lower body with his legs when he was tired and by propelling his arms, much like any distance runner or even sprinters. It definitely helped his lower body, much to our logical way of thinking, like what is the upper body doing if its just swinging in the air?

Let's go to fueling on the run. Do you ever use gels during your races?
Yes. I utilize gels. I also incorporate energy bars. I'm doing fluid replacement drinks and also water. I like to mix it up. Later in the race, when, digestion-wise, I'm working really hard, I tend to go to the simpler foods like the sports drinks and the gels. Earlier into the race I'll incorporate things like eating rice burritos, bananas, and various fruits. I try not to burn myself on certain items in the race. I've also done races like Badwater where it's really hot and I stick to mainly sports-specific foods or like rice balls—things that are still simple and don't require tons of digestion. In hot environments it's interesting what the body craves, what you can get down your throat and swallow when it's that hot out.

When I think of longer ultras and hear about the support you receive in them, I think about how much you guys are like race car drivers and how dependent they are on their crew. How much of your success can be attributed to your crew?
I definitely think that they are a big help. My wife Leah has been an immense help and a big part of my racing, especially during the longer runs. Pacing wise, it helps to have my good friend Dusty Olson who's done a phenomenal job at that. It's really critical that they know how to keep you motivated. When you feel like you can't go any farther, they find something in you. With ultras, that's what it's all about—finding that something in there that you can pull out and make you go faster, finding that extra gear. That's where a pacer and a crew come in big time—especially with a race like Badwater. Your crew is your lifeline there. There are no aid stations. If they don't know how to keep you motivated and hydrated and taking care of your body, then it becomes a big issue. During the Spartathlon, they don't allow pacers so I ran that whole race without a pacer. That was an interesting experience, because pretty much all of my 100-mile races have had pacers. That was a unique experience as well.

I read your biography and was surprised when I read that you grew up hunting and fishing. You are now a vegan. At some point you must have undergone a dietary transformation. Tell us about that.
It was a gradual transformation. My wife Leah was instrumental at piquing my interest. I always felt like I ate really healthy. My mother was a home economics teacher and we grew up in the kitchen cooking things. But it was a meat and potatoes diet. It's kind of strange that I have become a vegan and for me it was a gradual shift. It wasn't done for performance reasons; it was done for health. I read several books including Dr. Andrew Weil's book Spontaneous Healing. I also have several friends who are vegetarians. That really started a trend towards a vegetarian diet and then reading Howard Lyman's Mad Cowboy it just really hit home with me in terms of going full vegan. I didn't really think it was going to play as much of a role, but it definitely has played a huge role in terms of recovery. I look at it as a long-term kind of lifestyle. You see a lot of runners who have a lot of health problems later in life. Its not that just running will keep us healthy and I think that's where the vegan lifestyle and diet benefit [me]. I'm still learning and don't claim to have all the answers and the most perfect diet, but I've really noticed the difference in terms of recovery—being able to bounce back. It doesn't make me faster on race day. Is there some type of component that allows me to race faster? Maybe not directly, but indirectly it allows me to train and recover and stay injury-free and keep the body in homeostasis.

When I think of not eating meat and being an ultramarathoner, I think of having a problem with iron intake and possibly experiencing anemia. Do you take iron supplements or any other dietary supplements?
I was very interested in becoming well educated [in the vegan lifestyle]. I read a lot of information. I love spending time in the kitchen, so I really read up on sources. I try to keep a varied diet. I don't depend too much on supplements. In fact, the only supplements that I incorporate regularly are Vitamin E, C, beta carotene, and selenium as an antioxidant. I do also supplement calcium and magnesium, just as a very active athlete, I make sure that I get plenty of that. In terms of iron, I just eat a lot of dark leafy green vegetables, beans, legumes, nuts and seeds, and whole grains. I had my blood tested and never had any issues with anemia or even feeling like anything else has been out of whack. Everyone's different. It's something where you need to maintain a high caloric intake. Everything is important. If the quality of food is where it should be, you should be getting plenty of iron or calcium or protein. Unless you are just drinking soda pop and eating junk food, still being a vegan, that's something where you will start to see those deficiencies. I just try to get my nutrition through whole foods. I do also drink things like wheat grass and barley grass juice—especially when I'm traveling and can't get fresh wheat grass juice, I drink this product called Green Magma. That's kind of been my whole foods/vitamin-in-a-glass type of thing. It's just a really potent source of vitamins and minerals. I don't really get into a lot of fancy supplementation. I just try to get [the necessary nutrients] through just real whole foods.

There are a number of folks out there who adhere to the theory that some blood types adapt to the vegan lifestyle better than others. If you don't mind disclosing, what is your blood type?
I'm O positive. So if you go by that, I shouldn't be able to function on a full vegan diet. There's a lot of intricate processes that go on in the body. And the body, I believe, is just amazing in how well it can adapt. One book that I'd like to encourage your [readers] to read is called The China Study. It was written by [two] professor[s] who did an extensive study on cancer. It was quite fascinating. I think we try to put people into these categories, but I think the body is adaptable. For some people, yeah they need to eat more protein sources, whether its tofu or beans or legumes.

I think a vegetarian diet can get adopted by just about anybody. Sometimes it takes a little bit more diligence if you look at the East Africans—look at some of the best runners from the powerhouses in the world, or the Japanese for that matter. A lot of them grew up essentially on a vegetarian diet, mostly out of necessity. Obviously now they eat a lot meat in their training camps, because meats have become a lot more affordable for some individuals. But a lot of these indigenous peoples have survived off staples such as beans and grains and vegetables. Meat was always reserved for special occasions. Take the Tarahumara in Mexico as an example [of that]. I think its going to become even more important from an environmental standpoint. We all love to breathe fresh air as runners. Keeping our food production [while minimizing] degradation to the land is going to become a very important issue.

You are primarily a trail runner. You recently completed the Spartathlon which is something different off the trails. With that in mind, are you ever going to run the Comrades Marathon?
I'm not trying to put boundaries on myself. I don't think Comrades is something [in which] I could go and be competitive from a top 10 standpoint. I'd like to go experience that race as maybe top 30. If you look at my results, [you can note] that I run decent on the trails and at shorter distances, but when it comes to down to it, I'm probably more of the 100-mile plus specialist. Things like Spartathlon have piqued my interest to go into the 24-hour realm and see if I can take a stab and see how close I can come to Yiannis on the track or on the road for 24 hours. There's something there about some of those world records. The events have been taking place for hundreds of years and perhaps thousands of years if you go back to Greek times. Those are probably things I'll be apt to do on an international level.

This will be my 13th season of racing and if you add in years of cross country skiing, I always kind of wonder how many more years I'll be able to stay motivated as well as my body [how long it will hold up]. So I'm trying to mix things up. I'm doing the Hardrock 100 this year, and last year I toyed with some road races like Spartathlon and Badwater. I'm running the 100k nationals this year, which I haven't done in a few years. I'm trying to keep the racing interesting. I plan to go back to Western States and see how fast I can run there. I'm trying to mix things up a bit.

It can be argued that your accomplishments are eclipsed by the more famous ultramarathoners: Dean Karnazes and maybe Pam Reed come to mind. Dean Karnazes recently appeared on the cover of Outside magazine and was called, 'America's Greatest Runner.' You haven't been on the cover of that magazine, let alone Runner's World. Do you feel like there's an inconsistency there? Do you feel like you are in the shadows? Does this bother you?
I have tried to just ignore it. I think it's a fad. I don't view this sport in terms of fame. It's definitely not about fortune [laughs]. I'm in this sport because I love it. If I have inspired people along the way, then that's great. It's not fueling my ego. I'm not trying to win Western States to make myself feel better. I've just tried to explore my own realm of possibilities and push out into that outer edge of what my body can do. If, along the way, I become well-known, I would obviously never feel comfortable going around touting myself as one of the best distance runners, because I feel that there are so many incredible athletes.

With all due respect to these individuals that seem to be going around and garnering a lot of press, I think it's an example of how media works today. You know, why aren't the best marathoners in this country getting a lot of press coverage in Runner's World? For me to feel bad that I'm not getting that coverage, I have to look at all the other distance runners and not just ultramarathoners. A lot of guys like Karl Meltzer or Howard Nippert on the roads—there are some phenomenal ultramarathoners who aren't getting even as much press as I am. Am I better than them? That's the thing that I look at.

I think it hurts the elite athletes, if we can call ourselves that, or the top ultramarathoners. We are working our butts off and a lot of us are struggling to pay the bills while training like professional athletes and at the same time there's someone who's getting a lot of press for not turning out results, but rather stunts. It's a little unnerving. I feel bad for a lot of other distance runners who aren't getting any press. For some reason right now, it's something that the press has latched onto, and I think it's more of an issue with how the media works with advertisers and sponsors. I really think that the media should do a better job of not just following that money trail. It's really about following people in this sport because they are interesting and [they shouldn't] overdo it. It's all [gone] a little overboard.

There appears to be a resurgence of distance running and marathoning in this country. Take for example Ryan Hall's recent half marathon American record or the upcoming U.S. Olympic Marathon Trials, which might be the most competitive ones we've had in a long time. With that in mind, what do you think in terms of the future of ultramarathoning. Do you think that this bodes well for the sport in a few years? Do you think guys like Brian Sell or Ryan Hall or Meb Keflezighi, in 10 years or so, will move up to ultras and raise the bar for the sport?
I think this very well could be the case. I think ultramarathons will always be there. Will ultramarathons become more lucrative? Will there be more money in this sport? It's hard to say. Here's one thing that will bring numbers of top level marathoners to the sport—there's talk that in the 2012 Olympic Games in London, they may introduce the 100k road event as an exhibition event. This may bring them in despite the money. But look at Comrades; there's definitely a lot of money in that race. Maybe there's not enough to lure some of the faster marathoners, but there are some ultramarathons where one could make money if they have great road speed. Comrades is one of the best examples of that.

I think in order to bring in the East Africans and the runners from the US and other parts of the world to the sport, we'd have to see more money in this sport. Without the money or an Olympic event, I think there will always be that element of seeing some great distance runners come to this sport because they want something new as a challenge, like Alberto [Salazar] who came out of retirement to run Comrades. What drives the elite distance runner or the elite marathoner to do that? I think it's personality and I think that's what this sport has always had. There have always been some people who have been willing to be interested in what that ultra realm is like.

It's not easy for somebody to want to run these distances that we do...I think people just completing their first marathon in four, five, or six hours is good because it gets people out exercising. People are wanting the next new challenge and to me that is exciting. In terms of the top level [athletes], we will see a number of things change in this sport. Our sport, if you haven't looked at it closely, not to say a bad thing about it, we discourage elitism in the sport. And there are some folks who like keeping ultras non-money or non-profit oriented. In some ways that a good thing and in some ways it does hold [the sport back from] maybe better performance. People who run ultras, they love it. They like the challenge and love seeing what their bodies can do and it's not so much about fame and fortune.